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That you think a little too much on the pessimistic(sp?) side? I thought it was better not to dwell and to move onward and upward?
by Incandenza
My thoughts - What has anyone learnt?
Posted: 15:16 Mar 11 2002
6 Months On ...
Happy Anniversary doesn't seem appropriate in the slightest.
It's been 6 months since America realised it was just as vulnerable as the rest of the world. They are coping. They intend to celebrate their 'bouncing back' with two Twin Towers of light, giant laser beams that will shine into the sky where the heart of New York once stood. (I look forward to seeing the photos as my father is in New York now).
So, what are your thoughts today?
It's been 6 months since America realised it was just as vulnerable as the rest of the world. They are coping. They intend to celebrate their 'bouncing back' with two Twin Towers of light, giant laser beams that will shine into the sky where the heart of New York once stood. (I look forward to seeing the photos as my father is in New York now).
So, what are your thoughts today?
Posted: 15:16 Mar 11 2002 Those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it.
by Ethan
(quotes)
That you think a little too much on the pessimistic(sp?) side? I thought it was better not to dwell and to move onward and upward?
Posted: 16:09 Mar 11 2002 It's human nature to repeat history (Same mistakes over and over) whether it be in love or war.
by Incandenza
Those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it.
Ok, I can only say it again, its a shame that people die, sure. But if we got invovled in every conflict around the world, when would we be able to get on with our own lives and solve our own problems?
Posted: 16:21 Mar 11 2002 
Firstly, Dan, yes you are right, Inc has put across his point well and I apologise if I have come across as not appreciating that. I'll be the first to admit that, like Ethan, I don't follow the news as closely as others. And I certainly can't express my self as some of you can. I often know what I want to say, but can't expess myself
Anyway, back to the topic. Like others, it doesn't seem that long ago that this tragedy happened. Just been watching the footage that a couple of French cameramen shot. Truly horrific images, especially shots of firemen that you knew were going up the towers to their death. One even described the image of two people on fire as he walked into one of the towers and you can hear their screams.....
Innocent lives in both America and Afghanistan have been lost. And while I agree with Inc that those that fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it, like Ethan said, it is human nature, unfortunately, to fight one another and cause pain, usually in the name of religion.
However, it is also in human nature to not give up and to look for the good in people so surely that should give us some hope for the future?
Again, I may not have made much sense, but I like to think something good can come out of something so bad.
Anyway, back to the topic. Like others, it doesn't seem that long ago that this tragedy happened. Just been watching the footage that a couple of French cameramen shot. Truly horrific images, especially shots of firemen that you knew were going up the towers to their death. One even described the image of two people on fire as he walked into one of the towers and you can hear their screams.....
Innocent lives in both America and Afghanistan have been lost. And while I agree with Inc that those that fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it, like Ethan said, it is human nature, unfortunately, to fight one another and cause pain, usually in the name of religion.
However, it is also in human nature to not give up and to look for the good in people so surely that should give us some hope for the future?
Again, I may not have made much sense, but I like to think something good can come out of something so bad.
Posted: 18:12 Mar 11 2002
i was watching some tv programme and they were reaidng out messgaes that people had left after september 11th ( i think)
one of them said:
"an eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind"
i kinda think this is true
one of them said:
"an eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind"
i kinda think this is true
Posted: 19:21 Mar 11 2002
I really have no feeling about this six-month anniversary except, I wish some folks would stop wallowing in this tragedy and make an attemtp to move on.
I think the best thing that could have come out of this would have been for folks to really reflect on why this happened. I'm afraid that most Americans really don't have a clue and the news media and the government reinforce that ignorance by feeding the public pat answers such as, "They don't like our way of life" or some equally ridiculous nonesense.
In my humble opinion, it happened in large part because of the policy of the US in the Middle East, which has been incredibly one-sided in favor of Israel. To find the roots of the problem, you have to go back to the beginning of the 20th century, when Britain was in control of Palestine. Decisions were taken in the years after World War I by Britain, and later in the post World War II years by the United Nations (in which I'm sure the US was heavily involved) that basically took a large part of Palestine and handed it over for the creation of Israel--without the consent of the Palestinians who had been living there for centuries.
I won't bother wading through decades of history. But today, you have a situation where Israel gets $5 billion of aid from the US each year--more than any other country mind you, and most of it goes for weapons that end up killing Arabs. (By the way, the second-largest aid recipient is Egypt, which gets maybe about $4 billion.) So, you see, the US is heavily involved in the Middle East, even when it appears to be sitting by just watching the action. If there were ever a place where the US could impose its will in the name of peace, it's here. But the US turns a blind eye to the occupation of Arab lands, the building of new settlements in the West Bank, bulldozing of Arab homes when a family member is suspected of being part of a militant group, and on and on. At least Clinton tried to do something to bring about peace. Bush has basically given the green light to the Israelis to do as they please, and washed his hands of the whole affair. Much of the anti-American feeling in the Arab world stems, in part at least, from this policy.
Does this justify flying planes into the World Trade Center and killing thousands of people? No, That was a despicable act, and those that carried it out should be punished. But if we want to work toward stopping acts like that from occurring again in the future, I think we need to look seriously at the roots of the problem--and at the decisions governments are making now that are fanning the flames. Sadly, it seemss, few people in power--either in the US or the UK--seem ready to do that.
I think the best thing that could have come out of this would have been for folks to really reflect on why this happened. I'm afraid that most Americans really don't have a clue and the news media and the government reinforce that ignorance by feeding the public pat answers such as, "They don't like our way of life" or some equally ridiculous nonesense.
In my humble opinion, it happened in large part because of the policy of the US in the Middle East, which has been incredibly one-sided in favor of Israel. To find the roots of the problem, you have to go back to the beginning of the 20th century, when Britain was in control of Palestine. Decisions were taken in the years after World War I by Britain, and later in the post World War II years by the United Nations (in which I'm sure the US was heavily involved) that basically took a large part of Palestine and handed it over for the creation of Israel--without the consent of the Palestinians who had been living there for centuries.
I won't bother wading through decades of history. But today, you have a situation where Israel gets $5 billion of aid from the US each year--more than any other country mind you, and most of it goes for weapons that end up killing Arabs. (By the way, the second-largest aid recipient is Egypt, which gets maybe about $4 billion.) So, you see, the US is heavily involved in the Middle East, even when it appears to be sitting by just watching the action. If there were ever a place where the US could impose its will in the name of peace, it's here. But the US turns a blind eye to the occupation of Arab lands, the building of new settlements in the West Bank, bulldozing of Arab homes when a family member is suspected of being part of a militant group, and on and on. At least Clinton tried to do something to bring about peace. Bush has basically given the green light to the Israelis to do as they please, and washed his hands of the whole affair. Much of the anti-American feeling in the Arab world stems, in part at least, from this policy.
Does this justify flying planes into the World Trade Center and killing thousands of people? No, That was a despicable act, and those that carried it out should be punished. But if we want to work toward stopping acts like that from occurring again in the future, I think we need to look seriously at the roots of the problem--and at the decisions governments are making now that are fanning the flames. Sadly, it seemss, few people in power--either in the US or the UK--seem ready to do that.
Posted: 19:45 Mar 11 2002 Hmmmm, this got me thinking. I don't see grieving over mass destruction of innocent people is "wallowing in tragedy."
by Sandia
I really have no feeling about this six-month anniversary except, I wish some folks would stop wallowing in this tragedy and make an attemtp to move on.
I have no involvement with anyone who died on September 11th, but I still feel a sense of caring, and it still upsets me today, to think that something like that could happen in this day and age.
I can't believe it has been 6 months..... feels like a few weeks.
I'm still upset, my roots are in America, but I hope that there isnt more to come.....
Posted: 19:53 Mar 11 2002
I'm agreeing with cc...I also have no affiliation with anyone in the US, and yet I still feel upset by this. It still makes me angry to think that someone could do that knowing that it was going to kill thousands of innocents.
I recently went to NY, and saw some of the memorials that had been left by the people there. It really brought home the fact that these were real people, not just names on a screen.
I wouldn'r describe my feelings as 'wallowing' more a feeling of being humbled. We will never fully know what it felt like dfor the families of those that were lost, but I feel that it is important that we do not forget them.
I recently went to NY, and saw some of the memorials that had been left by the people there. It really brought home the fact that these were real people, not just names on a screen.
I wouldn'r describe my feelings as 'wallowing' more a feeling of being humbled. We will never fully know what it felt like dfor the families of those that were lost, but I feel that it is important that we do not forget them.
Posted: 21:24 Mar 11 2002
I'm warning you again, Joe. Do NOT make derogatory remarks about fellow members.
Any further posts of this nature will result in a warning email being sent to you - Whistler
(Edited by Whistler 12/03/2002 09:05)
Any further posts of this nature will result in a warning email being sent to you - Whistler
(Edited by Whistler 12/03/2002 09:05)
Posted: 06:55 Mar 12 2002 I think a lot of people felt this after September 11th, for a few days it seemed like that might finally be a watershed. but only for a few days, then we got back to the familiar cycle of tit-for-tat killing, indiscriminate bombing, demonisation of people because they happened to be born in a certain country. Now all signs point to an immenent invasion of Iraq, Israel has invaded the West Bank again. In these areas, as well as Afghanistan, children will see that the Western democracies want to bomb their homes, kill their relatives, deny them the riches and opportunities we take for granted, and they won't understand what they have done to deserve this. They'll grow up with a hatred of America and her allies, and an idolisation of Osama Bin Laden, the person who masterminded what the will see as a stunning attack against the evil oppressors. And the cycle will repeat again and again...
by Whistler
However, it is also in human nature to not give up and to look for the good in people so surely that should give us some hope for the future?
Again, I may not have made much sense, but I like to think something good can come out of something so bad.
Posted: 12:38 Mar 12 2002
by Ethan
(quotes)It's human nature to repeat history (Same mistakes over and over) whether it be in love or war.
by Avenger
And the cycle will repeat again and again...
Posted: 13:03 Mar 12 2002
September 11th hit me quite hard. I have friends with strong connections to New York (my ex-girlfriend used to live there), and I pay a lot of attention to international events - I spent weeks in anticipation of all-out war 
A mainly American (and otherwise extremely friendly) discussion board I hang out on has degenerated into flame wars on several occasions over the whole thing, and in conjunction with having an American flatmate, I got a chance to see how some Americans feel about what happened. The main impression I got was surprise, hurt and shock, rapidly followed in many cases with extreme anger and a desire for revenge, not justice. The fact they hadn't been struck in this way since Pearl Harbor (and that was a military attack) really did make a difference to their reaction. But so did the target and scale of the attack. And I do sympathise.
And the American government is doing what the more vocal elements of its public wants.
I'm still not sure how I feel about what has happened since then. On the one hand, I agree something had to be done, and, in "the ends justify the means" corner, good riddance to the Taliban... and it does seem to have been handled well. On the other, this is being used as an excuse for the American government to hit out at anyone they see as a threat, and it's an excuse Israel found extremely handy.
The current rhetoric against Iraq and North Korea worries me, as they haven't actually done anything yet - and that sets a worrying precedent for international politics. It's a short step from there to "the terrorists were based in your country, and you should have known about it" (note that on a lesser scale, ISPs are held responsible for emails and webpages originating from their clients).
I do not believe that we should be involved from here on in. Blair's running around tagging on Bush's shirttails is enough to make us a target - and living in London, I find that a little worrying.
We did learn something from September 11th - nobody's safe from terrorism, and a government with a big enough military can do anything it wants to defend its interests.
A mainly American (and otherwise extremely friendly) discussion board I hang out on has degenerated into flame wars on several occasions over the whole thing, and in conjunction with having an American flatmate, I got a chance to see how some Americans feel about what happened. The main impression I got was surprise, hurt and shock, rapidly followed in many cases with extreme anger and a desire for revenge, not justice. The fact they hadn't been struck in this way since Pearl Harbor (and that was a military attack) really did make a difference to their reaction. But so did the target and scale of the attack. And I do sympathise.
And the American government is doing what the more vocal elements of its public wants.
I'm still not sure how I feel about what has happened since then. On the one hand, I agree something had to be done, and, in "the ends justify the means" corner, good riddance to the Taliban... and it does seem to have been handled well. On the other, this is being used as an excuse for the American government to hit out at anyone they see as a threat, and it's an excuse Israel found extremely handy.
The current rhetoric against Iraq and North Korea worries me, as they haven't actually done anything yet - and that sets a worrying precedent for international politics. It's a short step from there to "the terrorists were based in your country, and you should have known about it" (note that on a lesser scale, ISPs are held responsible for emails and webpages originating from their clients).
I do not believe that we should be involved from here on in. Blair's running around tagging on Bush's shirttails is enough to make us a target - and living in London, I find that a little worrying.
We did learn something from September 11th - nobody's safe from terrorism, and a government with a big enough military can do anything it wants to defend its interests.
Posted: 14:04 Mar 12 2002 
is it me or does bush saying that he wants to stop terrorist using weapons of mass destruction, yet he is perfectly happy to bomb iraq with them only marginaly hypocritical?
Posted: 14:18 Mar 12 2002
by Ethan
(quotes)
you think a little too much on the pessimistic(sp?) side? I thought it was better not to dwell and to move onward and upward?
I expressed my feelings of disappointment and frustration that the West en masse does not seem to have learnt anything in the wake of last years events. Those feelings spring from a fundamental belief that humans *are* capable of growth and change both individually and culturally (consider gender and race politics today compared to 50 or 100 years ago).
by Ethan
(quotes)It's human nature to repeat history (Same mistakes over and over) whether it be in love or war.
I would suggest that the second statement above is vastly more pessimistic than anything I have said, because it does not allow for either growth or change.
The only way that is likely to happen is if we do take the time to scrutinise or 'dwell' on what happened.
Unfortunately, I think that in the UK we are growing ever less aware of the world around us. There is a chicken and egg scenario here whereby we get a media which focuses on trivia because we want it but we only want it because that is what we are given. However, I don't want to digress too much from the topic of this thread, suffice to say that the failure to date to address the issues underlying September 11 is I believe indicative of a major cutural shift away from meaningful living.
Posted: 15:20 Mar 12 2002
it's very sad
I still feel very upset watching about in on the news.
however going to war is not the way to stop future incidents/take revenge.
I don't trust Bush at all and his 'worlds policeman' thing. I hope ol' Tony Blair won't go and suck up to Bush again.
I still feel very upset watching about in on the news.
however going to war is not the way to stop future incidents/take revenge.
I don't trust Bush at all and his 'worlds policeman' thing. I hope ol' Tony Blair won't go and suck up to Bush again.
Posted: 19:34 Mar 12 2002
Contrary to popular belief, America is not as justified in it's actions as some people would be lead to believe. September the 11th was an appetite for disaster, waiting to happen, the only people that failed to see this were the Americans. America has a progressive policy of expansionism, just take a look at Grenada, Cuba, Vietman, etc. I'm very curious as to when America is going to stragecially bomb Boston, and take out certain areas of Belfast - for the reason Mr Bush is having an alleged Global attack on Terrorism. If we ever get to the situation of politicians actually understanding Global politics as opposed to warmongering for their own benefit we may make some progress. As an Englishman it annoys and upsets me that we have such a weak leader who believes we, as a nation can compete in a Global arena. The only end result that we foreit our income to support a ruse.
It pains me that our leaders respectively have to pursue these actions essentially to win votes. We cannot change that because every time we vote we replace an inept with an inadequate.
The reason why troops die is because diplomacy is allegedly the last resort - unfortunately it's left in the hands of politicians.
We will never, ever resolve Terrorism. The reason being, as soon as we have erradicated this generation there is an equally willing more stalwart generation willing to take their place.
Americans, admittedly, do take a lot of lives in Military action, but that is an accepted loss by any Military standards. What we have to realise is we voted these people into power. Tony Blair is a puppet, that's never going to change. Mr Bush is a warmonger and that's never going to change. Basically, the Global attack in Terrorism is a front, we can not stop it because it's suits our economies. Life sucks, we voted for sucking.........
(Edited by Jondo 13/03/2002 00:30)
It pains me that our leaders respectively have to pursue these actions essentially to win votes. We cannot change that because every time we vote we replace an inept with an inadequate.
The reason why troops die is because diplomacy is allegedly the last resort - unfortunately it's left in the hands of politicians.
We will never, ever resolve Terrorism. The reason being, as soon as we have erradicated this generation there is an equally willing more stalwart generation willing to take their place.
Americans, admittedly, do take a lot of lives in Military action, but that is an accepted loss by any Military standards. What we have to realise is we voted these people into power. Tony Blair is a puppet, that's never going to change. Mr Bush is a warmonger and that's never going to change. Basically, the Global attack in Terrorism is a front, we can not stop it because it's suits our economies. Life sucks, we voted for sucking.........
(Edited by Jondo 13/03/2002 00:30)
Posted: 00:23 Mar 13 2002 
The articles that still bring tears to my eyes in the papers are those of the many widowed mothers who are just giving birth to their babies without the support their deserved and to children who have lost either one of their parents.
Also to many families who still don't have anything of a body to grieve over, in an article yesterday it appears that 25 stories of each tower are still left to sift through with hundreds of bodies still to be found. Every particle of skin or bone is being catalogued in the hope of tracing a *new* body There have been many items of jewellry found in the remains of the towers which apparently echoes the amount of bodies lost there Regardless of the reasons the loss of people was still very unneccessary
Also to many families who still don't have anything of a body to grieve over, in an article yesterday it appears that 25 stories of each tower are still left to sift through with hundreds of bodies still to be found. Every particle of skin or bone is being catalogued in the hope of tracing a *new* body
There have been many items of jewellry found in the remains of the towers which apparently echoes the amount of bodies lost there Regardless of the reasons the loss of people was still very unneccessary
Posted: 00:44 Mar 13 2002 Religion is the main problem with the world today.
by Incandenza
My thoughts - What has anyone learnt?
We so many different religion's all saying their's is the true one and all others are wrong. Thisjust teaches intolerance and hatred. If everyone gave up religion the world would probably be a much safer place.
(Now ducks out of the way for the retaliatory strike)
Posted: 07:59 Mar 13 2002 
From a web site I visit every day:
13 March
The people of Argentina and Chile were
preparing for war because of a dispute
over which country owned some land
high in the Andes mountains that separated
the two countries. On Easter Sunday
many people gathered in the cathedral
of Buenos Aires, the capital of Argentina.
The bishop preached in his sermon
about the need for peace. Many
disagreed with him, but some supported
him - including a bishop in the opposing
country of Chile who went about his own
country, also preaching peace.
Such was the effect of the two bishops
on the people of their countries, that the
two governments felt they should step
back from war and talk with each other
again. They agreed to invite King
Edward VII (the seventh) of Britain to
make a decision about who should own
the land over which they were about to
go to war.
The bishop from Argentina had said: “I
would like to see Christ standing between
our two nations, guiding us and leading
us.” Some people decided to take this literally
and set about fund-raising to build
a statue of Christ. On this day - 13th
March - 1904, representatives of both
countries gathered around the huge
statue that had been built on one of the
mountains of the Andes, between both
nations. This is one of the prayers used:
“that these great mountains may crumble
into dust before the peoples of Argentina
and Chile break the peace which we have
promised to keep, here at the feet of
Christ.”
The huge statue of “Christ of the Andes”
is a great symbol and reminder of the
need to work together for peace.
5 Let us pray:
Lord,
inspire us to act justly, love tenderly,
and walk humbly with you, our God.
Breathe upon us your Spirit of peace
that we may be
bearers of reconciliation
wherever you place us.
May there be peace in our hearts,
in our homes, in our land,
and between all people.
Amen.
- The statue of Christ of the Andes is not to be
confused with the statue of Christ overlooking
Rio de Janeiro, Brazil.
13 March
The people of Argentina and Chile were
preparing for war because of a dispute
over which country owned some land
high in the Andes mountains that separated
the two countries. On Easter Sunday
many people gathered in the cathedral
of Buenos Aires, the capital of Argentina.
The bishop preached in his sermon
about the need for peace. Many
disagreed with him, but some supported
him - including a bishop in the opposing
country of Chile who went about his own
country, also preaching peace.
Such was the effect of the two bishops
on the people of their countries, that the
two governments felt they should step
back from war and talk with each other
again. They agreed to invite King
Edward VII (the seventh) of Britain to
make a decision about who should own
the land over which they were about to
go to war.
The bishop from Argentina had said: “I
would like to see Christ standing between
our two nations, guiding us and leading
us.” Some people decided to take this literally
and set about fund-raising to build
a statue of Christ. On this day - 13th
March - 1904, representatives of both
countries gathered around the huge
statue that had been built on one of the
mountains of the Andes, between both
nations. This is one of the prayers used:
“that these great mountains may crumble
into dust before the peoples of Argentina
and Chile break the peace which we have
promised to keep, here at the feet of
Christ.”
The huge statue of “Christ of the Andes”
is a great symbol and reminder of the
need to work together for peace.
5 Let us pray:
Lord,
inspire us to act justly, love tenderly,
and walk humbly with you, our God.
Breathe upon us your Spirit of peace
that we may be
bearers of reconciliation
wherever you place us.
May there be peace in our hearts,
in our homes, in our land,
and between all people.
Amen.
- The statue of Christ of the Andes is not to be
confused with the statue of Christ overlooking
Rio de Janeiro, Brazil.
Posted: 10:50 Mar 13 2002 Not exactly a retaliatory strike, I have a lot of issues with organised religion, but your point is overly simplistic. All major religions are founded on a basis of respect for other human beings, not intolerance. The fact that people use religion as an excuse for violence doesn't mean that religion is to blame, if religion didn't exist they would just find another excuse.
by Vinnie
(quotes)
Religion is the main problem with the world today.
We so many different religion's all saying their's is the true one and all others are wrong. Thisjust teaches intolerance and hatred. If everyone gave up religion the world would probably be a much safer place.
(Now ducks out of the way for the retaliatory strike)
Posted: 12:53 Mar 13 2002