White Hart, thanks for the link, a very interesting read. And Pizza Express clearly wins that competition, although Harpo's in Leeds make the best pizzas, but only after a night drinking in the Original Oak. However, peanut butter and coleslaw is a truly disgusting mix and you should be thoroughly ashamed of yourself!

And Diandra, it was my pleasure. And I forgot to mention grits, IHoP and biscuits (and I don't mean the things we dip in tea over here, my fellow Brits). Or that thanks to America we have Movies, Jazz, Blues, Rock and/or Roll, Hip Hop, Disco, Soul, or any contemporary form of music (even Trip Hop, Jungle and Electronica could not have happened without American influence). Or pool. Life would not be worth living.

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by Jayjay
Or that thanks to America we have Movies, Jazz, Blues, Rock and/or Roll, Hip Hop, Disco, Soul, or any contemporary form of music

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Can't dispute the music point (with the exception of folk music) but would have to contend the point re: movies on three grounds:

1) The physical apparatus - It was Louis Lumiere (French) who invented the Cinematographe which recorded and projected moving images (to be fair, without Thomas Edison's celluloid and sprocket holes this would have probably have been impossible).

Lumiere was also the first person to exhibit a projected film commercially (1895) and started work on the use of colour.

2) - The recognition of Cinema as spectacle evidenced by the films of George Melies (French)

3) - The creation of editing (montage) as we understand it today can be directly attributed to Sergei Eisenstein (Russian) and all Hollywood movies use the Classical Continuity Editing system derived from his theories.

Please don't take this as America bashing, they certainly took the ball and ran with it, making along the way many of the greatest movies ever, the ones that made me love cinema in the first place.

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by Jayjay
peanut butter and coleslaw is a truly disgusting mix and you should be thoroughly ashamed of yourself!

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Well, it was a post-pub invention several years ago and if I'd have been sober I'd probably never have tried it

And I'm not knocking American food that much really. Away from cheap fast-food joints I've had some very nice burgers and enchilladas, and even when I was veggie I used to get people to go into McDonalds to buy milkshakes for me I am also fully aware that my own nation has perpetrated far more than its own fair share of crimes against food, and anyone whose forbears could decide that cabbage was best boiled for over an hour can't be too harsh about other people's cuisine

(Edited by White Hart 23/03/2002 12:56)

i love marmite!

In hospital, after three days of not eating they gave me some marmite on toast! mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm - it was sooooooooooo nice!

Incandenza, I did think twice about the inclusion of 'movies' but decided to leave it there. Basically, it was the use of the word 'movies' as opposed to 'films' that allowed me to stick with it, as movies are solely an American invention (and word) which they have mastered. While cinematography is not an American invention, the movie is the application of pop culture/pop art to celluloid. While it may borrow from other cultures, it makes the format its own. I'm not arguing that Americans make all the best films, but they do make all the best movies...

And White Hart - a post pub invention? Then all is forgiven. After all, drunkeness is next to godliness. Least I think that's how it goes...

On the subject of marmite... I love the stuff, especially on toast. MMMMMMMM.

And I rarely eat pizza if it doesn't have pineapple on it. MMMMM Pineapple and pepperoni pizza... YUMMY!

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by Jayjay
Basically, it was the use of the word 'movies' as opposed to 'films' that allowed me to stick with it, as movies are solely an American invention (and word) which they have mastered. While cinematography is not an American invention, the movie is the application of pop culture/pop art to celluloid. While it may borrow from other cultures, it makes the format its own. I'm not arguing that Americans make all the best films, but they do make all the best movies...

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Let me preface this by saying 'This is a silly and pedantic argument.

Firstly, that is a purely semantic distinction. Movie is simply an abbreviation of 'Moving picture' referring to 'A sequence of photographs projected onto a screen with sufficient rapidity as to create the illusion of motion and continuity.'

Secondly, Melies was doing pop culture long before America got to it.

I stick to my objection.

What's a Melies?

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by Diandra
What's a Melies?

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George Melies made films in France at the end of the 19th century.

Whereas Lumiere and his acolytes focused on documentary believing the strength of film to be the capturing of reality, Melies was a magician (literally) who recognised the ability to manipulate celluloid to create what would now be termed special effects.

The most famous of his 'movies' is probably Le voyage dans la Lune, the first science fiction film ever and one which created a famous image, that of a rocket lodged in the face of the man in the moon.

Actually, Incandenza, it strikes me as more of a question of semantics than pedantism...

'Movies' is a word that is American in origin, and is seen as a slang term in the English language. It is immediately associated with Hollywood and hyperbole. While I agree that Americans are not the only ones who make 'movies' (there's even been a couple of Brit ones, never mind all the French and Hong Kong Movies), it is the Americans who dominate the form. And if I was to list a top twenty all time movies, I doubt there would be more than a couple of token European/HK choices. I suspect if you carried that over the rest of the movie-watching public, the trend would be repeated, for the most part. American movies dominated western culture since early in the twentieth century.

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by Jayjay
Actually, Incandenza, it strikes me as more of a question of semantics than pedantism...

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by Incandenza
Firstly, that is a purely semantic distinction.

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NB - You can call me Inc.

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American movies dominated western culture since early in the twentieth century.

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Good thing the French got there in the 19th then.

With the best will in the world, popcorn movies are not *inherently* American at source in the same way R&B is.

Well, this will teach you to come to my rescue Jayjay. Or perhaps it will encourage you to do so, since I'm assuming you're rather enjoying this pedantic semantic discussion with Inc that started because of it?

And actually I rather thought I proved a point about American predominance in movies by asking who in the heck Melites was. Although I am pleased to know, Inc, don't think I'm not.

R&B rules, and I won't even point out how it wouldn't have come to pass had it not been for people of African ancestry and thus is arguably African in origin.

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by Diandra
R&B rules, and I won't even point out how it wouldn't have come to pass had it not been for people of African ancestry and thus is arguably African in origin.

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Quite. Just as all contemporary music is descended from the folk music of Europe, Africa and the Americas (and recently incorperating many influences from Asian folk music, particularly Bangra), so Movies were influenced by the whole gamut of film-making from around the globe.

Oh, and by the way, it's Melies, not Melites...


And yes, you're right I am an argumentative .. so and so.

And Inc it is.

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by Diandra
And actually I rather thought I proved a point about American predominance in movies by asking who in the heck Melies was.

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Hmmm ....

if I were feeling belligerent I might suggest it says more about cultural imperialism and American ignorance of other cultures...

But I'm not. And I wouldn't do that to you anyway.

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by Jayjay
(quotes)
Quite. Just as all contemporary music is descended from the folk music of Europe, Africa and the Americas (and recently incorperating many influences from Asian folk music, particularly Bangra), so Movies were influenced by the whole gamut of film-making from around the globe.

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Maybe we could all agree that every cultural artefact of any medium is attributable to homo erectus at some point?

Heh heh, I said Erectus.

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by Incandenza
Heh heh, I said Erectus.

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OK, I know it's fully childish, but LOL!!!

Really must get round to growing up someday...

And, OK, I'll accept the truce, Inc.

[quote]by Jayjay
And, OK, I'll accept the truce, Inc.


Now how does that entertain me?

As for knowing who Melies is, Inc, weren't you the one just arguing something about consensus on another thread? I bet there'd be a consensus about not knowing who Melies is, if you put it to a vote.

Yeah, that sounds weak even to me. Oh well.

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by Diandra
Now how does that entertain me?

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My appologies if our truce lacks entertainment, but it's kinda hard to argue with the statement:

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by Inc
Maybe we could all agree that every cultural artefact of any medium is attributable to homo erectus at some point?

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And he said erectus .. out loud an' all! .. so I really did have nothing left to argue with.

However, I still stand by my overall position, that America has contributed more to western culture than the rest put together during the twentieth century. And what's more, for the better, overall, excluding MacExploitation and 'Caring Conservatism'. Oh, and Voodoo economics. But then Adam Smith an' the Ol' Magster want a fair bit of blame for that one.

What's the "old Magster?"

Why our answer to the Ronnie and George show - Margaret (Maggie, Magster, and some unfamily friendly stuff, but never Marge...) Thatcher!