The fact that most of these words are slang for a "normal acts" we humans do makes them "so bad".

Because if you think about it the use of slang isn't seen as proper use of the english language. Especially in the old days it was taboe not to use proper english and slang was only used by the (how to put this nicely) the lower classes within a community. But a proper lady would never ever use slang.

Because nowadays (read over the last 30 years) we don't really see the use of slang as being a terribly bad thing because face it slang streamlines a conversation you can say a lot with just a few words and everyone that should know what you are saying knows and all the people you don't want to know (read parents) mostlikely won't

But still a bit of that proper use of the language has stuck in people's minds. And these taboe's once made up by older generations still stick only with a different value. Because your fokes have learned from their parents not to say certain words this list of words that you can't say has slightly been modefied over the years and added to your upbringing by your parents.

So the fact that some words where taboe to use in the old says make them still "not done" now. Because there are effectly good ways to say most of the things you say with the use of slang that is generally accepted as being the standard.

Its all about what is seen as the general standard and how you conform towards that standard.

To come back on your murder and stuff. Yes they mean things that are a lot worse but as you will probably know there are a whole set of words to say murder. Where murder is the generally accepted word to use and some other words aren't and therefor have to be marked as "BAD!" (in other words seen as a swearword)

Ok I just hope this made any sense at all

As you can see we've had our eye on this thread for some time now Mr. Anderson"

But having said that it's a really good point you've brought up I think it's the fashion in which the word is meant that gives it it's taboo/swear word statues. The sentiment behind the usual/original usage of the word is what I think makes some words unacceptable, for example, when scientists and doctors are talking about anatomy professionaly, certain "correct" terms are used, which means that they have acceptance in the general public. Often when the "slang" term for the same anatomical construct is used the sentiment behind the conversation is far less than "professional" and thus the slang term becomes associated with the "bad sentiment" ( for lack of better terminology) and gains the reputation of being a "Swear" word.

We've probably got some linguistics expert here who can give us the "real" reason for it

(Edited by MonSTeR 21/03/2002 11:12)

a lot of swear words are mean in them selves. A female dog for example. Would you like to be called a dog, let alone a female one?

An illigetimate child used to be a HUGE insult (tho it's less so thses days, the word just hung around).

Then you have my fav swear works, Another word for testicles and another word for shirt lifting. Neither is an insult but both subjects are hardly things to be discussed in "polite society" even if using the correct anatomical names.

Just my thoughts.

Well, I can't fit the description of Official Site Linguist, but I'll happily be the Official Site Annoying Person With Over Inflated Opinion Of His Own Views...

Strikes me that taboo, or swear, words are a reflection of a culture's moral values. There is historical precedence, and the aspect of generational differences in cultural values, but I think the overall implication is the same.

Calling these taboo words 'swear' words comes from the importance, historically, of making oaths, and the power that 'words of oath' had, which meant they should not be used lightly or out of context.

However, if we look at the words considered taboo by recent generations then you'll see a general shift away from words associated with sex and genitalia towards words associated with the oppression of racial, cultural and social groups.

Due to the 'family friendly' nature of this site, I won't 'name names', but some suggestions should show my point. The generation that fought in the war (my grandparents’ generation) found words referring to sex, genitalia or bodily functions/excrements the most offensive and shocking words in the English language. Most people of my generation use these words on a daily (or .. minutely? .. in my own case) basis. Some still have problems with a certain c-word, and many wouldn't use these words in front of parents or grandparents, but we don't have any moral objection.

So what are the taboo words of my generation? I think the most powerful word is one associated with race (I think referring to it as the n-word should suffice). There are similar words associated with sexuality that are offensive. Most of these words were in every day use during the war generation's hay day. This to me clearly shows a gradual shift in taboo words and a shift in cultural values.

For what it's worth, anyway.

As I see it, there are basically two types of swear word: religious oaths and sexual swear words. There's also a whole category of terms that have recently come to be considered unacceptable by many members of society but IMO haven't yet attained the status of 'swear words', such as the 'n-word' identified by Jayjay.

The prohibition against religious oaths comes partly, as Jayjay said, from the seriousness of 'swearing an oath', but I think it has more to do with whichever Commandment says 'Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain'. Blasphemy was a cardinal sin, and if you've seen 'Life of Brian' you'll know what happened to blasphemers

The issue of sexual swear words is more complicated. They haven't always been as taboo as they are now. Chaucer, for example, uses the f-word. I think Chambler has a point when he says that part of it is to do with levels of refinement. Words like that were fine for bawdy peasants in taverns, but not for the gentry (who spoke French anyway), and as people became more socially aspirational they wanted to talk like nobs.

However, I think that a lot of the reason why these words are so taboo is because they describe things that are seen as 'dirty'. They may be normal and everyday things, but they were viewed as so disgusting they should never be mentioned, and if they had to do they should be dressed up as science. Remember the reputation us Brits have as being the most uptight and sexually repressed nation in the world? Well, that denial of all things sexual is what gave these words such power.

Of course, these days sex and religion aren't such hangups for most people, so we casually blaspheme and profane our way through the days. There are words that are considered acceptable in informal discussions at work these days that I don't think would have been 10 years ago. In return, we see words that were in common daily use 50 years ago becoming taboo. As Jayjay says, it's all due to a shift in cultural values.

(Jayjay - I hope you don't feel I've repeated your post too much. I wanted to explore a bit more of *why* some words were so taboo 100 years ago but aren't now, although the main thrust of the argument was the same).

And SPIKE - I think the reason why murder and torture aren't swear words is that, although they were wrong things too, they weren't things that everybody had to do even though they would prefer to pretend that they didn't exist.

I read a book called "A Natural History of the Senses" by Diane Ackerman, which said much the same thing as what White Hart said. That is, that a lot of words we now see as the big guns of swear words, were perfectly fine before William the Conqueror. However, when the court and polite language of England became French, the good old Anglo Saxon words, like the f word and the s word, suddenly got dirty. Quite possibly, you all are being rather patriotic when you use the f word--which means I also swear allegiance to England a lot, even though I'm American.

I also think White Hart is right about the religious swear words(you rule WH!) being rooted in prohibitions against blasphemy.

Diane Ackerman,who's one of my favorite authors, also writes that the c word that Jayjay--and me, most definitely--has trouble with, has harmless origins. It comes from the same word which spawned "country" and "county," rather "mother earth" associations rather than an extremely degrading word for women or their genitalia.

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by DiandraHowever, when the court and polite language of England became French, the good old Anglo Saxon words, like the f word and the s word, suddenly got dirty.

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I wonder if the phrase, "Pardon my French", stems from those times, as an ironic aside?

Whatever the case, the only thing that's keeping any of these expressions beyond the pale now is a foolish consistency. I give it ten years max, and considerably less if 'Let's nuke 'em' Bush gets re-elected (I mean, what would anyone say if they heard the Early Warning siren?).

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by Joe

and considerably less if 'Let's nuke 'em' Bush gets re-elected (I mean, what would anyone say if they heard the Early Warning siren?).

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One of the following:

****!
Oh, ****!
what the **** is that?
Bush is a ****!
Bush ***** donkey *****!
We're all ******!
**** **** **** **** ****!
Darn.
**** you, you ****!
******* **** ****** ****!

While this post has been left, in future, please refrain from using any swear words or bad language, whether spelt fully or intimated by starring out certain letters. This is while our policy on swearing is sorted. Thanks - W


(Edited by Whistler 21/03/2002 22:12)

There's always one ... and funnily enough ...

White Hart, no probs. One it was nice to read the different angle you took and that you went into more depth than I did. Two, it makes a change to have someone basically agreeing with me.

Diandra, I have to admit that I, personally, have absolutely no problem with the c-word and use it regularly. I respect the many (almost exclusively) women I know who do object to the word, and avoid using it outright in their company, but it’s not an opinion I share.

As for some of the words I mentioned above not being seen as swear words, per se, I feel that this will change. Give it twenty years or so, and as my generation become officially The Man(tm), you'll see these words referred to as swearing. And some of the tamer words for human excretion (p-and-s-words, for example) will be perfectly acceptable.

One other thing. Something that does intrigue me is that there are taboo words for race, religion, nationality, sexuality, and physical status but not gender. I can't help remembering a gig where that goddess, Courtney Love, asked for the crowd to first shout the W-word (or H-word, referring to prostitutes - your choice of spelling), then the B-word (previously mentioned female dog), and then finally the N-word. The crowd happily joined in the first two, but was noticeably uncomfortable with the third request. I forget CL's response, but it was along the lines of asking why one term of abuse is OK, while another is not. I have no problems with the B-word or W/H-word; I use them both on a regular basis and even refer to myself with such words. But the N-word I will use in reporting, but would never, ever call someone that name. And would be horrified if someone white was to do so.

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by Jayjay
But the N-word I will use in reporting, but would never, ever call someone that name. And would be horrified if someone white was to do so.

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And yet black people (especially Americans) use the word freely in pop culture, especially music,

Reclaiming the language of abuse. The same thing happens in the gay community. By repeated use of a term of abuse, the hope is to take some of the power of that word away, so that it doesn't have the same power to hurt.

However, I've yet to meet someone who was black or who was gay that would accept someone who was not part of their community, or a very, very close friend, to use such a word without offence being taken.

And, in my opinion, rightly so.

I see we can swear if we asterisk out the letters now... ******-A!!

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by Jayjay
Something that does intrigue me is that there are taboo words for race, religion, nationality, sexuality, and physical status but not gender.

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I think it depends how vocal the group referred to has been about the insulting nature of the words, and also how seriously society takes their discontent. African-Americans form a substantial sector of American society and fought a very high-profile civil rights campaign in order to have the n-word relegated to its current position. I wonder how many more Oldham and Bradford riots it will take in this country to have a similar effect on a p-word referring to Asians? You or I might not say the word, but I have heard it used a lot, and by people with quite high social standing who I would not have expected to use it.

Equally, it's only really Middle England that has great regard for the feelings of gay people. I have heard extreme bigotry expressed in terms I would not want to repeat to any of my gay friends, again by colleagues and acquaintances I would have expected better from. I think the same thing is true of the use of derogatory terms for women. I'd say it was a sign that we have a long way to go before we're *really* equal

I'd like to think that you're right though, and that in 20 years these will be words that no-one would utter in polite company.

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by Maffrew
I see we can swear if we asterisk out the letters now... ******-A!!

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Just 'coz one person does it doesn't give the rest of you licence to do it

Ah, but surely if that person is allowed to do it, without the post being suspended or deleted, then we *are* allowed to do it? if i'm not allowed to do it, then nobody should be allowed to do it.

Swearing is not big and it's not clever!!! We remove swearing when a) we see it, or b) when we can be bothered.

Lotsa Love,

Your T21 Moderating team... (where the T is short for Tea-break)

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by Whistler
Just 'coz one person does it doesn't give the rest of you licence to do it

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you have set a precedent and that is a dangerous thing

Wow, what timing! I've just read this post after watching South Park, which tonight contained 162 instances of a certain naughty word!