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by Jayjay
(quotes)

Well, no, frankly.

The n-word, and equivalent words of abuse towards sexual divergence, have a clear history of being solely words of abuse with very specific meanings. The reclaiming of these words by the victims of the abuse is, roughly, only thirty years old. The link between these words and abuse is direct and traceable.

I know of no such link between the c-word and misogyny. The word was taboo because it referred to female genitalia (and I suspect, because it was associated with female sexuality, another taboo subject, and another reason to reject its taboo status).

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My point was and is ... there is no inherent link between a word (signifier) and it's meaning (signified).

My understanding, and that of everyone I know is that the word in question is sexually aggressive (the combination of female sexuality with taboo seems quite misogynistic to me by the way) and it's primary usage (although not only) is by a man to describe a woman ... the combination of that gender usage and the aggressive connotation is enough to legitimately describe it as misogynistic.

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by Diandra
I think you're misinterpreting our discussion. I don't want to corrupt a family-friendly environment. I'm discussing because I'm interested in women's rights and whether certain words support or detract from them. I think it's a serious, challenging and interesting discussion.

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I understand that sometimes a decent discussion on things requires the language to get a little..shall we say varied?

But even sometimes, there should be a line. And that line should not be crossed. I understand your meaning Diandra, and I find it interesting But like i say...there are lines, and sometiems those lines should not be crossed, not even by 'trying to get around it' (a la the 'C-Word, P-Word etc)

I know of a couple of my friends that look at this site with their children freely looking at the screen. I still stick to my original point of when a child askes there mother/father the question of "Mummy/Daddy, whats the C word?" That situation should never arise. Its clear that people think they have got around it by saying (Insert appropriate alphabet letter here)-Word

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by Ethan
(quotes)
It was my interpretation that this was a 'family friendly' site. I can see it now..."Mum, whats the C word?"

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I can't help thinking that Mum is probably well capable of handling that sort of question and that it occurs regularly.

Are you seriously suggesting that all topics of conversation be restricted to subject matter which coincides with the knowledge and interests of young children?

Could be tricky on the Angel Forum for a start.

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by Ethan
(quotes)
But even sometimes, there should be a line. And that line should not be crossed. I understand your meaning Diandra, and I find it interesting But like i say...there are lines, and sometiems those lines should not be crossed, not even by 'trying to get around it' (a la the 'C-Word, P-Word etc)

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Since it's a discussion on the meanings and intricacies of words--and I persist in thinking it's a valid and interesting discussion to have--it's a little difficult to know what we're discussing without referencing the words themselves. In fact, you just did so yourself. I can't come up with a more obscure way to reference them--in fact, because I'm a little slow, I had trouble cottoning to these things as it was!

"Mum, whats the C word?"

"Dearest, are you taking the P again?"

Darn it to heck, there those bringer downers go, always wrecking it for everyone else. Ooh, it makes me angry!

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by Incandenza
I can't help thinking that Mum is probably well capable of handling that sort of question and that it occurs regularly.

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Sorry but if a child comes out with a references like some of which has been discussed then they should be taught some manners, respect and discipline. To this day if I come out with certain phrases, my mother would beat me senseless (More or less ).

Ethan, I'm not having a go, but I just got a mental picture of some kid turning to mum and asking 'mum, what's a robot chubby?'

Just felt like sharing, really.

Anyway, Diandra and Inc, do you still hold that the previously alluded to word is a misogynistic word, in the same manner as another previously alluded to word is associated with racism? Do you feel, like me, that it should be a matter of personal choice, in that I respect the feelings of those who take offense by not using it in their company? Or that, like the racist term (or terms...), it should be taboo?

(Edited by Jayjay 24/03/2002 03:28)

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by Jayjay

Anyway, Diandra and Inc, do you still hold that the previously alluded to word is a misogynistic word, in the same manner as another previously alluded to word is associated with racism? Do you feel, like me, that it should be a matter of personal choice, in that I respect the feelings of those who take offense by not using it in their company? Or that, like the racist term (or terms...), it should be taboo?

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Was that the Q word?

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by Jayjay
Ethan, I'm not having a go, but I just got a mental picture of some kid turning to mum and asking 'mum, what's a robot chubby?'

Just felt like sharing, really.[/b]

LOL. A lot. I wondered whether that word had the same meaning it did here. Guess it does.

Incidentally, it just occurred to me that we frequently use the acronyms "LMAO" or "ROFLMFAO" pretty frequently. Are children going to ask "Mum, (I've suddenly turned British here), what does LMAO or ROFLMFAO mean?"

[b]Anyway, Diandra and Inc, do you still hold that the previously alluded to word is a misogynistic word, in the same manner as another previously alluded to word is associated with racism? Do you feel, like me, that it should be a matter of personal choice, in that I respect the feelings of those who take offense by not using it in their company? Or that, like the racist term (or terms...), it should be taboo?

(Edited by Jayjay 24/03/2002 03:28)

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Yes, I still hold it's a misogynistic word. My stance was largely because I've only heard it used for women, and I'm still trying to wrap my mind around it being used for men as well. I still have an instinctive strong distaste for it though, and will have to think of a reasoned justification for that instinctive strong distaste. I'm sure one exists though.

Incidentally, I'm drinking wine while I'm posting and participating in this discussion, and I might point out that my cognitive skills are definitely on the wain.

I don't think any word should be taboo. I think extra sensitivity and perhaps a bit of self-censorship is kind because certain words do have the power to wound more than others. But I'm not going to tell anyone what words to say and not say. I don't like being told what to do, and I presume others don't either.

I give up... (Insert rolleyes smiley here)

Diandra, while I'm not exactly pro-censorship, taboo, to me, doesn't mean that a word is out-right banned, just one that must be used with extreme care. Again, referring to two of the words alluded to on race, I would only use those words in reporting an event (for instance, I remember a piece of graffiti around the time of the Gulf War that went '<guess> off Saddam, you <guess geographically and culturally incorrect abusive word>'). Under no circumstances would I use them to jovially refer to myself, my friends, or to someone I disliked. The issue of someone hearing me would be irrelevant. I just wouldn't. I cannot say the same for the primary word we are discussing, which I use to describe myself daily. I wouldn't use that word in ear shot of someone I knew or suspected would be offended, out of curtesy, but do not consider it taboo as I do not associate it with oppression.

But I'll bear it in mind if we ever have a discussion that isn't on a family friendly board.

And who introduced the Q word? Inc, all this running around words is starting to make me feel like I've wandered into the Mornington Crescent thread by mistake...

(Edited by Jayjay 24/03/2002 06:03)

What's a Mornington Crescent thread?

Jayjay, I think I can safely say that if you used the c-word in reference to yourself in my presence I would not only be not offended, you'd have to pick me up and set me on my feet because I'd be laughing so hard at the wackiness of Brits.

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by Diandra
What's a Mornington Crescent thread?

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It's a thread in the games forum

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by Jayjay
Ethan, I'm not having a go, but I just got a mental picture of some kid turning to mum and asking 'mum, what's a robot chubby?'

Just felt like sharing, really.

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Just saw this...thats what I get for scanning. Well, to be honest, I was going for something simplistic. I hadn't long watched it again after a bout of nostalgia. And to be honest it is a tad more simplistic than some of the quotes I've seen.

Ethan, it's a good quote. In fact I'd go as far as to say .. actually, can I say 'cracker', considering the context? And yes, you can tell by my own quote that I'm a complete self-indulgent <wot Diandra said would make her laugh really hard if I called myself it>.

Can I go back to using <insert letter from roman alphabet>-word? I'm starting to confuse myself, never mind anyone else.

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by Jayjay
Ethan, it's a good quote. In fact I'd go as far as to say .. actually, can I say 'cracker', considering the context? And yes, you can tell by my own quote that I'm a complete self-indulgent <wot Diandra said would make her laugh really hard if I called myself it>.

Can I go back to using <insert letter from roman alphabet>-word? I'm starting to confuse myself, never mind anyone else.

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Jayjay, you've confused me too, as the word which would make me really laugh is not the word I'd associate with self-indulgence, but the c-word. Actually, though, both would make me laugh, as I'm getting less discriminating as it gets later.

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by Diandra
Jayjay, you've confused me too, as the word which would make me really laugh is not the word I'd associate with self-indulgence

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See, that's the point. Where I come from the word is of no specific meaning and is just a generic term of abuse. Any of the following would work:

I'm a complete self-indulgent c, d, p, w, s or any of the other interchangable words.

NB - In case of confusion, the list goes f-anatomy, m-anatomy, m-anatomy, onanist, human excrement.

(Edited by Jayjay 24/03/2002 05:11)

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by Incandenza
My understanding, and that of everyone I know is that the word in question is sexually aggressive (the combination of female sexuality with taboo seems quite misogynistic to me by the way) and it's primary usage (although not only) is by a man to describe a woman ... the combination of that gender usage and the aggressive connotation is enough to legitimately describe it as misogynistic.

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Sorry Inc - in all the hoo-haa I missed this post. I agree with you that words have no inherent meaning, all the meaning comes from common usage. However, I think this thread has clearly shown that common usage, over geographical and no doubt socio-political areas can and do vary. I have never found anything aggressive in the c-word. Not inherently, although sometimes through tonal emphasis. This is what I meant by the importance being use, not meaning. To me, the word is a generic term of abuse. If used one way, it’s light-hearted. Used another and it describes frustration. And, ultimately, it can signify hate. But it is how the word is used (ie - context) not the meaning of the word that conveys this. However, it is clear that in the environment that you and Diandra live in the word has completely different connotations, which I certainly was not aware of.

I should also clear up my comment about female sexuality - taboo. Yes, that combination is misogynistic, but it was my suggestion that it was the suppression of the word that signified the misogyny, and it's use was in effect breaking the taboo of female sexuality. I hope I got my point over with more alacrity this time...

I was only away from the pc for a few hours!

I'm going to side with Jayjay here. I have no more of a problem with the c-word than any others. Of course I'd be upset if I was called it, but I would be equally upset if I was called any of the other words listed here, except by friends in a non-agressive spirit.

And yes, I have been known to use the word. Under extreme provocation, never to someone's face and, in the spirit of wacky Brit-ness, exclusively to refer to men. In fact, when I think about it, I only use any *really* abusive terms to refer to men. Women tend to get off with comparison to bovines or female canines.

As Inc and Diandra have both said, the use of the word exclusively *by* men and *about* women is misogynistic in the extreme. It reduces women to their genitialia. I'm not quite sure what it is when a woman uses the word about men. I'm more like Jayjay and his friends though, and a lot of people I know, who swear profusely with very little thought for the meanings of the words beyond that of generic insults. In these circumstances, I think the words have pretty much lost all connection to the things they originally signified.

Just so you know *exactly* where I'm coming from on this, I *am* female. I'm also the person who at university ran a rather short-lived (read as from the 5th pint until passing out) one-woman campaign to reclaim the word in the same way that the gay community have reclaimed the q-word. I also consider myself to be a feminist.

(Edited by White Hart 24/03/2002 14:52)

Ok guys, firstly let me say that the rules of the site are obviously evolving and policies are forming now; I've just added a sentence to the Member's Guide - www.tangent21.com/it.php/about/mbg/ - to say that asterixing out words where the meaning remains clear is going to be regarded as using the original word (in future). This is after discussion in staff and, frankly, out of concern for the views of parents.

This discussion hasnt been generally obscene, or offensive or uncivilised; and I dont suggest it has or even that it may become. But it simply isn't something which I feel we can reasonably host within the bounds of this site as it stands. Does that mean the site is limited? Yes. This is a case where a perfectly valid topic of discussion that isnt obscene cant be discussed here reasonably. Nevertheless, I find no way currently to reconcile the continuation of this discussion with the way we as a staff and I think membership want the site to be and become. A parent has to decide about how, when and if they want to talk to their child about specific taboo words.

I dont propose to delete the thread, and noone is being warned or reprimanded by me here for participation in the thread, but I hope you'll understand that I have to set the boards not to allow future replies to this topic.


I'm julz@tangent21.com.


(Edited by Julz 24/03/2002 18:46)